A quick survey.
Who do you think will win, if it happens to be a race between a Tiger and a Panda?
You can give your answer in the end..
Panda is the national animal of China.. and Tiger is that of India…
Yes, I am comparing India and China…
The popular media uses Dragon as a synonym to China.. and does the comparison as Dragon vs Tiger…
Well, let’s be realistic folks.. Dragon is an imaginary animal.. We live in a practical real world.. So this is a competition for the superpower status between Tiger and Panda.. not between Tiger and Dragon 
Jokes apart…
The two largest populations on this planet of over a billion each..
Home to 1/3 of Humanity…
Neighbors sharing a long disputed border….
China and India..
A Chinese ambassador USA Hu Shih once said “India conquered and dominated China culturally for 20 centuries without ever having to send a single soldier across her border” He was referring to the dominance of Buddhism in China which was born in India !
Can India make history repeat again ?
When we say martial arts the popular perception remembers China.. Well, the martial arts came to China from India along with Buddhism ! See Kalarippayattu – The Mother of All Martial Arts
India and China are two competing economies today for their share of the global trade.. rising economic giants.. can dwarf all other world economies in next 3-4 decades by mere size of their consumer population and the huge manufacturing industries..
Who will win the race for the economic dominance ? We all know that economic dominance leads to all other kinds of dominance in a knowledge society, including the military dominance..
India has greater chances to win this race..
Well, don’t think I am saying this because I AM an Indian..
Instead, I am saying this simply because i am an INDIAN
In other words, because I know what is India…
India is the largest democracy in the world!
China is the largest autocracy in the world!
India is building itself from bottom to top.. The one billion people in India decide their fate..
China is building itself from top to bottom… The communist regime is deciding the fate of its billion population..
When ideas come in from a vast pool, they tend to be better and stronger, even though the process might be slower compared to instant decisions…
Indian democracy might be a bit slow because of the democratic process involved in the whole operation… No law gets passed in India overnight, unlike China..
In China to build a flyover all it takes is an order by the communist government.. no questions asked.. people have to give up their land immediately without any resistance.. The economic growth is not a people’s movement in China.. Any questions asked will be answered by bullets! See the Tianenmen Square incident if you do not know about it.. The Chinese military and the government killed their own Youth, students! History is rewritten in the texts.. most of the current Chinese generation in China do not even know about Tianenmen square in China! They have never been told about it.. All search engines including Google and Yahoo inside China have blocked websites and web pages containing the word “Tianenmen” ! And Google says “Do no Evil”! Is denying access to information not evil ?
I mentioned Tianenmen because it was a failed rebellion against the government. Now just think what happens in case of another successful rebellion in China which overthrows the communist regime! Or of a civil war in China… If you do not know what is happening in China visit this blog – Chinaview
People are being thrown out of their own houses to make way for huge commercial buildings and flyovers! Even proper compensation is not given to them! They cannot go to the courts !
When I say Indian democracy is better than Chinese autocracy, people ask me, “see how well Chinese cities are maintained! How beautiful they are. Look at the roads! Dont you think a dictatorial regime can bring about similar changes in India too! Even our cities will be beautiful, free of traffic jams and so on….”
Well, I tell them the truth
In India the cities are becoming so messy because of the influx and migration from the rural areas into the urban metropolitan cities like Bangalore, Bombay, Delhi, etc
Do you think the Chinese big cities are so well maintained inspite of great influxes like this. How many of you know the fact that it is illegal in China to migrate from rural China to the Chinese cities like Shanghai, Beijing etc ? This is how Chinese government keeps their cities so high at international (?) standards, by denying its own people a right to the urban life.
Can you think in India about requiring a Visa to stay in some other city other than the one you are in now?. For instance, if you are staying in Bangalore and from next month you decide to go and stay in Delhi, will anybody stop you in India? Obviously No.
The question itself sounds so stupid in the first place! Well, because India is a democracy, nobody can stop you from living anywhere in India…
In China.. every person has to have a regional passport called hukou. If you want to migrate to some other place in China, then he will need a Visa to stay in that new place which is called zanzhuzheng. This is a temporary permit and to get a permanent hukou for your new residence, well, its a long legal process !
If you are a Chinese and are staying in a place other than your hukou jurisdiction without zanzhuzheng, then you will be arrested! Imagine getting arrested in India for moving from Bangalore to Bombay!
People bribe officials in China just to move across cities! Even if you have a zanzhuzheng for a long period no matter how long, it does not get automatically converted into a hukou! If the government decides that there are too many people working in a city, then they will just throw all the zanzhuzheng holders out of the cities !
Now tell me do you want world class Chinese cities? Or the great Indian democracy?
The picture of an economically rich, well developed China comes from the urban China.. No press and media access is allowed to the rural China where the real China lives ! Aren’t they their own Chinese people ? Is denying access to a developed life-style to its own people a symbol of economic growth ?
That is the basic difference between Indian Democracy and Chinese Autocracy.
In India influx into cities is allowed. And this forces the administration to setup suburbs and create more facilities.. Delhi got its metro.. Bangalore will get one.. Suburbs will be developed into independent urban centres.. satellite townships will be developed.. SEZ will be setup.. The process might be definitely slower than that of Chinese development.. but all the citizens have a say in it.. Nobody is denied their rights..
Even in India if you look at the people’s voice against government in these cases.. it is from the communist rules West Bengal.. incidents like Nandigram, Singur are from West Bengal..
Communist party of India and Communism in India is a big joke! They opposed modernisation for decades.. and today Buddhadeb suddenly wants all industries in Bengal.. And still claims to be a communist.. Has he read Marx, Lenin, Mao ? Only people who do not know the definition of communism will vote for parties like CPI and CPI(M). Even Infosys has finally said Good bye to its plans of setting up its operations in Bengal.
Then we have people talking about Corruption. India has a lot of corruption in the system . There is no fact denying it. But as and when we catch people with corruption, we have a independent judicial system here which can punish them. It may not be the case always. But then even the people have the power to vote corrupt politicians out of power! People can do protests. Anybody can file a PIL in the court. Media can expose the corrupt people! We can burn their effigies, hit them with shoes and what not…
Lets look at China.. Corruption goes unquestioned. Media is not free. There is only one party. There is no voting. Television companies are owned by the state. Any voice against the government (even if it is about corruption!) is not tolerated! People are sent to jails for decades together!
Well at this point let me make it absolutely clear. I am not talking against Chinese people. They are wonderful people with Buddhism in their hearts! It is the communist regime that I am an against. There is a need for the people of China to be liberated from their oppressive communist regime. Unfortunately, countries like US are dummy super powers who talk about restoring democracies only in weak countries like Iraq and Afghanistan.. When it comes to strong ones like China or even North Korea.. they prefer never ending dialogs Well, probably only a strong India can restore democracy in China.. We need to protect those people whom we gave Buddhism with love..
Coming back to corruption, according to the Transparency International’s Corruption Index, China is just 3 places ahead of India in the world corruption rating, India is at 74 and China is at 71 ! Who said there is less corruption in China?
The Indian system is transparent. Questions and debates are allowed. Opposition parties exist in India. The Chinese system is opaque. Questions are not tolerated and there is no opposition party in China!
If India were to follow the Chinese ‘no questions asked’ style of economic development India can overtake China in a no matter of time.. But what we want is a equal growth as much as possible at all levels of a society. We do not want two societies in one country, a rich urban vs a poor rural society, where the rural population can never get into the urban areas… which is exactly what China has today.
China has made its economic growth BECAUSE of its political leadership.
India has made its economic growth INSPITE of its political leadership.
Many of us know that in India 350 million people (of the 1 billion) live below poverty line. But how many of us know that in China 800 million people (of the 1 billion) are poor!
Another point worth to be noted is that
India is a young country while China is an old country.
In other words even though the population is almost same with one billion each for both India and China, Indian population is relatively young with over 70% being below the age of 30, while within the next two decades a majority of the Chinese population will be retired! Thanks to the China’s one baby policy, and with no such policy in India, India will have a young society full of energy and action, while most of China will be living on retirement pensions (provided their government gives it!)
The Indian model of economic growth is consumption oriented. Indian consumership is growing at a massive scale. Multinationals are setting up shops here for these consumers. There was a time when products used to be released in India decades after it was released in US. Today many a times products are launched first in India !
The Chinese model of economic growth is export oriented. Cheap exports! China promotes exports than consumerism! How many of you know that unlike the Indian rupee which is an open currency whose value is determined by the actual market trends… Chinese currency is controlled by the Communist government there. The communist government of China has undervalued its currency so lowly against US dollar that the Chinese people can afford to export products to US and other countries at a very low cost in international standards ! There is no real cheap cost of Chinese exports here, it is just a game of currency conversion mathematics.. This is the biggest artificial economic bubble.. The day the bubble bursts, the game is over!
Unlike India where due to its true economic growth the Indian rupee is becoming stronger and stronger against dollar day by day! It might slightly bring down our export earnings, but in the longer run will definitely prove to be beneficiary.. A stronger rupee means Indians can buy things anywhere in the world on par with developed economies! We dont have to spend crores of rupees then to buy a Boeing! We don’t have to pay tens of thousands of rupees for international air travels! A stronger rupee means greater international exposure! There wont be a difference between buying a Maruti and buying a Mercedes! One can go on a trip to the Grand Canyon just like the way one goes to Ladakh or Nepal ! How do you think american citizens are able to tour all over the world? Because they earn more? No. But because their currency USD is stronger.. and this is where a strong rupee will lead us to!
Will the Chinese with their undervalued currency have this privilege?
India’s unruly parliament, messy politics, dozens of political parties, protests, debates, all might portray a turbulent picture! But this is where the stability of India lies.. When people are allowed to express their anger, break glasses on the streets, burn effigies, etc any frustration in the society gets an opportunity to express itself.. there is no frustration built up in the society which over a period of time might burst one day in the form of a civil war
China might look like a stable nation with a direction.. but this is the opacity of its system hiding the inner turbulence which is growing over a period of time.. See these report Can you imagine something like this happening in India? The very next day the government will be out of power if it happens so..
China puts public interests (?) ahead of Individual rights. A flyover construction project cannot be stopped if one Individual’s house or a temple is on the way! It will be demolished.
India puts individual rights ahead of public interest. If a temple or a house is on the way then the project HAS to stop. The person can go to the court. Get proper compensation or the project will alter its route! The process might delay the project execution, but finally all its people are happy! There is no threat of civil wars.
Even minority voices (not in the religious sense, but minority in terms of public support!) might hold the public interest at ransom in India, but every individual person in India feels empowered. Indian growth might be initially a bit slower compared to Chinese… but once the entire India adjusts itself to the globalization wind, Indian growth will overtake Chinese growth within a fraction of time!
The story of India and China is like that of Hare and Tortoise… India might be slow.. but what matters is who reaches the winning point first
I am feeling sleepy now.. its late night… Now tell me, Tiger or Panda ?
I thinks we have empowered too much, i.e one of the reason for our slow growth. We let everybody talk and do everything. Democracy is being misused by many.
Let’s be realistic… if you want to use a comparison between a Tiger and a Panda, it would not help your case at all. No other animal receives as much international attention as the Panda. Even panda poop is an attraction people are willing to pay for. o_O
Superpower status would go to the Panda.
As for the real debate between India and China (I really hate to see a democratic state is loosing to communism)
“China’s growth is a product of its efficient, all-powerful government. Beijing decides the country needs new airports, eight-lane highways, gleaming industrial parks—and they are built within months. India’s growth is messy, chaotic and largely unplanned. It is not top-down but bottom-up. It is happening not because of the government, but largely despite it.”
@Judy
Well, I am not talking about raising money by displaying Panda in a zoo.. I am talking about a race between a Panda and a Tiger in a wild forest!
Jokes apart…
Chinese products are copy cats.. they reverse engineer things and mass produce using their artificially devalued currency for cheap exports!
Their companies have even copied Indian designs!
Look at
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1368082.cms
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/07/06/business/NA-FIN-US-Made-in-China.php
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0IMR/is_1-2_81/ai_n16599308
http://ia.rediff.com/money/2006/nov/22bajaj.htm
Even USSR with its top down communist approach during the cold war time.. with superfast development projects was thought to be a threat to USA.. Read the books of those days and you will see that many in US itself had thought that soon USSR will become an undisputed superpower!! What happened later? Everybody knows the history today!
How can China claim to be a superpower when its own people are being harassed by its govt? Superpower status also means greatest freedom to its people! Equal opportunities to all its people.. See http://chinaview.wordpress.com to know the current status of the so called Chinese might!
Democratic Indian process might be definitely slower.. but its like a self healing body, corrections will continue to happen in the system… unlike the Chinese body which has full of internal injuries and survives on external life support system!
10 years back a graduate youth in India was so scared that he might not get a job! Today the same youth is so confident, he doesn’t mind resigning his current job without a new offer in hand! a fresh graduate today is very choosy about the company he will get into!
Well thats what even I said,
“China has made its economic growth BECAUSE of its political leadership.
India has made its economic growth INSPITE of its political leadership.”
Just imagine say in the next elections we will get a wonderful political leadership.. 5 years from then China will be way behind India…
Nothing can substitute a democratic progress.. slow yet very stable!
wonderful read, good one
Superb & interesting article.
Thanks Bachodi and Raghava..
As most Indians, you too live in the past.
Mother of all martial arts or Budhism may have originated in India, but look where we are right now. Neiher Budhism nor the martial art exists in India any more.
You should go to China once and then comment on the comparision. Autocracy is not as bad as it appears. Specially when we know the current state of our democracy and the political scene.
A stronger Rupee was once devalued several times in 1991 (and not 2 decaded ago) and that was a very conscious decision. Our foreign currency reserves were almost zero then, although a Hero Honda was just Rs. 15 K. Ever since the devaluation, our foreign reserves are now $200 B (compared to a few trillion with China) and Hero Honda is now Rs. 45K . I couldn’t buy one then but I can buy one now !! Why do we need this foreign currency at all? Because Iran doesn’t accept Rupees when we buy our Petrol from them and Maruti or Benz, they all run on Petrol, my dear.
You wanna take more foriegn Jaunts, try Thailand or Malaysia… there currency is comparable. To USA, we have at least 50 years to catch up. I am not saying, we shouldn’t try, but try we must knowing the target realistically!!!
China, has already sent a man to space on its own, built a railways Beging to Tibet (costs only $40), going to organize olympic next year!!! Dream on mister!!
Compilers and Operating systesm are a passe (every Tukaram, Dukaram, Heeralal can write one but who is buying it), unless you invent something like water, you can only hope to get to where US and Japan are..
I agree with Gurudev strongly and more than that I disagree with Neeraj. Most youth in India DO NOT know their glorious past and think that India has always been a land of snake charmers and poor people…. So there is a need to keep them informed
Secondly, a stronger rupee will definitely be accepted anywhere in the world, only a weaker rupee wont be. Not just Iran, any other country will openly accept a stronger rupee. Given Iran’s animosity towards US, it will be the first to accept it.
Thirdly as a country’s economy gets stronger, it is pretty natural that its currency also becomes stronger
You are able to buy a bike today not because of weaker rupee but because of the cheap labour India is offering to other countries and if tomorrow some other country offers even more cheaper labour then where does India stand? No cost advantage no innovation?
If you cannot create innovative products , then you are not participating in the building of India as a super power, but we are definitely there with people like Gurudev
You need not necessarily write another compiler.. dont take it literally, understand the context.. it might be just another set of innovative products..
Neeraj
You said “Neiher Budhism nor the martial art exists in India any more.”! Which part of India you live in
Buddhism exists in all the tibetian colonies in India, see http://deepakgopi.blogspot.com/2006/10/buddhist-temple-at-bylakoope-coorg.html
This is in my state Karnataka. Buddhism exists in states like sikkim, ladakh and they all belong to India!!
Have you been to Kerala? Kalarippayattu the ancient martial art exists even today in Kerala, its even taught in many places in Karnataka. See http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/06/23/mother-of-all-martial-arts-kalarippayattu/ and http://www.kalaripayattu.org/
Why go to China to see what’s happening there. Just look at this site http://chinaview.wordpress.com
You want Chinese autocracy in India? You mean you dont want people from rural India to come and live in urban India? Do you know rural to urban migration is banned in China? Can we deny the choice of urban or rural life to our own people? Do you want us to have passports for Bangalore, Bombay, Delhi, etc?
We have had our share due to a weak currency and cheap labor, but that cannot take us forward indefinitely. There are other destinations in the world that come up for even cheaper labor. How many are prepared for a salary cut in IT today? But if we depend on rupee being weaker thats what is bound to happen in the future. Give the internal inflation rate is it feasible? Dont you think it makes sense to become more innovative?
I am not denying that you can buy a hero honda today compared to 15 years back. You are able to buy it only after the cheap labour based IT came into India, where offshoring to India meant a cost advantage.
Now I want us to go a step even further where after another 5 years somebody will again write saying ’5 years back India to London flight in cost me Rs 40000 and I could not afford that but today it is only Rs 10000 and I can afford it’!
We need to move ahead and start riding Benz. Not just stick to the hero hondas! Dont you like to see a scenario where Indian autorickshaw drivers are taking their family on a foreign trip?
I agree with Rajesh on the Iran comment. Iran is not accepting Indian rupee today because its weak compared to dollar. If rupee becomes as strong as or even more stronger than dollar, do you think Iran still wont accept it? Any country on this planet will accept the Indian rupee then, and that is what we want India to become.
You say we need at least 50 years to catch up with US. Well, I say let us accelerate it even more! Our aim is high, our dreams are big, this is what our dear president A P J Abdul Kalam taught us, so we dont need to look at Thailand or Malaysia as you have said, we will look at US and even beyond!
By the way how many Tukaram, Dukaram, Heeralal do you know who have written OS?
I did not mean that we need to write a C compiler or DOS operating system. I meant next generation development platforms and next generation operating systems. Think big buddy
Good e-mail Blog promotion dude!!
Cheers!!
Jason
Oh you got an email! Great!
GD, Neeraj and to all fellow indians ..
Well .. I would like to share something with you. I was undergoing a training program where my trainer said :
1 Indian = 10 Japanese
But 10 Japanese = 100 Indians
This is because we are not team players. We cross each other’s ideas, thoughts and try to pull people above us. The most common words that I come across on various blogs are “I strongly disagree ..”
Dudes .. we are living in a progressive India. And, it is only us who can change the fate of this country. I don’t want to sound like your intentions are not correct.
I strongly believe that we all have one common dream and that to see India on top. India without poverty.
Lets come together and make this country a wonderful place on this planet. We have enough reasons to crib about our past .. Lets get our act together to make our future bright.
I was going through a survey between developing and developed countries. And, it has come out that people in India are optimistic about their present and future while people in developed countries are neither happy with their present nor positive about future.
Lets cash on this mass positive attitudes of people of India..
Vande Maataram.
I Completely agree with Dev. Instead of fighting as to whether China is great or India is great or US is great, we better work and MAKE INDIA THE GREATEST AND STRONGEST OF ALL COUNTRIES
Am happy that many are there in this country who think like us, but many are there who are just reading the article.. Giving some comments.. and leaving it..
Guys why dont we do some thing for this country which lead to the path of developed country. Am looking for the guys who really want to develop this country.
If you are ready then you can reach me by
email id : ambajirao@yahoo.com
Subject : “1 rupee to INDIA for developing”
voice : 91-9840478599
LET US DO THE THINGS INSTEAD TALKING ONTO THE THINGS
Awesome blog… i loved every part of it… Just made me think for 15 min, nice eye opener.
Dev,
Very thoughtful posts!!. I too Got an email and followed this link. am yet to read many of ur posts.
Keep penning,
Priya
Thanks Jason for your comments..
Thanks Priya for your comments.. yes sure will continue to put down my thoughts here..
hi guys,
the aricle n comments r really good..
One said its 15k for a hero honda 5 years back, don’t you think at that time what was the earning of a common man.. now its 45k now a man can earn more, on average u can say u can earn around 12 to 15k per month comparing to the previous days where its hard to earn some where around 5 to 6k, think abt it..
Hi gurudev ,
Nice article … I didnt know lot of information given by you abt china……….i love my india ….
Hi Gurudev,
Nice article bro
Dear Guru,
You are really like a guru! to open eyes of many people who do not know much of whats happened, happening or going to happen in India/any topic you choose with and with your skill full interesting writings with good explorations/thoughts with good reasoning or counter ism/humour.
Thanks for putting down your thoughts and keep penning.
As our Father of Nation: Swagiya sri M.K.Gandhi told (not in his exact words) (in India) …If every one starts doing his own job dutifully, sincerely, honestly, then anything can be achieved, (and Yes, India WILL become a Super Power)..!!
Got a link from friend (Prakash) on article Stronger Rupee == Stronger India and found other good article also….
JAI HIND…!!!
RUDRA
hi Amjed, rajesh and binuraj,
thanks a lot for your comments guys.. your comments are really encouraging
hi Rudra
Nice to hear that you liked the articles. Will definitely keep writing more.
Let us try to become #1 in our respective fields, and India will automatically become #1 in the world
hats off to u ..
stronger supee = stronger economy
Really reflects
strong vision and rational identity.
i am also from same breed and wud come forward to
help out such an initiative.
I have one doubt.
1 Dollar = 40 INR so Indian rupee is weak against dollar.
1 INR = 2.9 Japanese Yen
so Japanese Yen weak against Indian rupee ?
Hi,
I usually dont read and if read do not put comments to blog articles….. but this time could not help…. really nice article…. a real eye opener…. keep it up………….
As my understanding goes, Japanese economy is very strong. They are also global leaders
in many areas like consumer electronics etc (Sony, sanio etc).
It is nice article different than …… other. where you found
yar…….. nice keep it up & also send such type of articles.
….Bye.
Hi…
Nice article….
Abhi Said…
1 INR = 2.9 JPY
In Japan they have no concept of rupee & paisa…
In fact you can compare Yen to a paisa and the equation becomes…..
100 Paise = 2.9 JPY
=> 1 JPY = 31 Paise ….
Equation similar to that of USD… ie JPY is strong
bye…
Ambica
Vijay
Glad to know that you are willing to participate in the action.. as of now my part of the action is going behind the scenes
will definitely let you all guys know when I decide to go public
Abhi and Ambica
Rupee vs Yen is actually very interesting thing.. even here a stronger rupee has given profit for Indian companies that have taken loans !! Can you believe that Indian companies like Alok industries have made profit on their loans, thanks to the stronger rupee !!
The scenario is something like this:
Rupee has become stronger against dollar in the past few months.. dollar has on the other hand become stronger against yen at the same time!!
Advantage rupee now, rupee is even more stronger against yen thanks to a weaker dollar.. so Japanese imports are even more cheaper now!! Earlier we used to get one yen for 38 paisa, today we get one yen for a mere 33 paisa !!
About an year back when rupee was about 45 per dollar Alok industries had bought a loan worth USD 100 million in terms of yen.. In this year march when rupee reached 40 per dollar and became stronger, and dollar on the other hand became stronger against yen, Alok industries decided to repay back their loan.. and due to the stronger rupee and weaker yen, they had to pay back only 97 million USD in terms of yen !!! and in terms of rupee they made a profit of about 33 crores just by repaying back the loan..
There is a complete report on this at http://www.moneycontrol.com/india/news/economy/importers-profit-fromre-36-yen-changing-equations/15/43/293835
Which is what I have also said, a stronger rupee means a easier pay back for all our international loans !! Suppose rupee becomes 4.5 per dollar.. a 100 million USD loan that India had bought when rupee was 45 per USD from US can be paid back in 10 million USD now !! A savings of 90 million weak USD
Also note that as rupee becomes stronger the external loan per head on every Indian will come down automatically without actually having paid back a single paisa !! If the average external debt on every Indian for instance was 20000 rupees when rupee was 45 against dollar.. later when rupee becomes 4.5 against dollar the average debt will come down to 2000 rupees without actually having paid back even a single paisa !!
Thanks kiran for your comments.. btw I found the article inside my brain
Pooja
Now that my article made you write a comment on my blog, I really feel even more proud about it
Thanks a lot for your comments..
Excellent style! Keep up the good work… keep writing… wow!
Thanks Seema… Keep reading
I think its the panda which is going to rule in the coming years ..
things going for the panda are
)
1 > the discipline … keeping 1 billion ppl in check and on the move is a herculean task and u can imagine the kind of restraint and wiill power reqd for the same !
2 > The leadership … The chinese leadership is very much evolved and much more sane than the indian one .. most of the chinese top brass are engineers / doctors which gives them a perspective better than our uneducated or ill – educated hoodlums
3 > BUsiness might – the chinese business even though it bloomed under state owned enterprises .. is known as the bulwark of the nation .. infact the biggest chinese bank had a IPO recently and it is 4 times bigger than our very own SBI and all the state banks put together .. so u can very well imagine the reach and the impact
4 > Stopping of migration will ensure each region will improve on its own rather than sending ppl to other good places and spoiling the demography of the nation !!! imagine the MUmbai without truckloads of biharis and southies coming in daily (watch any amol palekar movie
5 > Chinese movies are faring very well in the oscars and in the international arena .. infact jackie chan is way way ahead of indian bachchan .. amitabh is hyped way too much and we dont have a single indian star of international repute
6 > the 1 child policy is not bad , in fact it will bring the quakity of life on parallel with western europe … so its not a worry right now
7 > Militarily , china has a lot of indigenous WORKING products which are of export worth and bring in valuable FOrex for it .. unlike us who have to spend to get thing
8 > Finally to cut a long story short , the panda has a very huge and famous legacy to live upto .. SO u can catch a glimpse of the pandas progress at the 2008 OLYMPICS in beijing !!!!!
Hemanth,
And now I will tell why Panda won’t rule..
1. Discipline is a wrong word.. fear is the right word.. visit http://chinaview.wordpress.com .. Even Iraq had this kind of discipline under Saddam.. even north korea has it today.. USSR had it earlier.. Germany had it during Hitler.. where did all these regimes end up ? Tianenmen square was a failed coup by the Chinese youth.. all it takes is a successful coup and China will be at a civil war where the people’s movement will overthrow the communist regime.. dont take my words.. just wait for at the most of another two decades
2. The leadership?? Where is it? Leaders dont FORCE others to follow them.. China and India rank almost same in terms of international corruption index.. in India we have judiciary to take legal actions, we have the free press to let us know about it.. both are absent in China and you call this leadership? an evolved one?
You dont like your leader in India, you change the party in the next election.. China has only one party, there is no alternative
3 > BUsiness might? Why are not the people of china benefitting form it? Can you name the Reliance, Tata, Infosys and Wipro of China? Indian people are smart.. they prefer to invest in reliance and infosys shares than in bank IPO.. but that in no way proves the Chinese business might.. business might is decided by external dominance, not internal..
Look at this external business might of China
http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/07/18/chinese-goods-cheap-yet-expensive/
4 > Stopping of migration ensures unequal opportunities.. do you think China is developing villages into cities by stopping migrations? Check out the state of the Chinese villages that have been polluted by industrial toxic wastes.. coal mines.. abandoned infertile lands..
People get carried away by few images of Shanghai and Beijing..
See the videos of the other regions of China here
http://hitxp.wordpress.com/world/chinese-pollution/
On the other hand India takes everybody into account.. Indian growth is bottom to to upwards.. unlike China
5 > You are doing a mistake by comparing Bacchan and Jackie Chan.. Compare Rajni Kant with Jackie Chan buddy..
Rajni Kant’s pay = 2x (Amitabh Bacchan + Shahrukh Khan + Hrithink Roshan + Abhishek Bachhan)
It is the bollywood that has hyped up Amitabh.. Rajni Kant has fan clubs in China.. Does Jackie Chan have in India? At least I am not aware
6 > One Child policy is not bad? After 2 decades China will have more retired people than the working population.. simple social economics boss.. if more people are on pension than on salaries.. imagine the economy.. and moreover there are over 460000 premature deaths every year in China due to pollution alone! Another nose dive in terms of working population…
7 > Militarily? who cares? Any military misadventure by any country in this nuclear age means THE END
All India would need is to have few missiles with nukes targetting major chinese cities.. ready to be launched from land sea and air… what military might are you talking about?
8 > 2008 Olympics? Watch the plight of the chinese people who have been dislocated without any proper compensation due to olympics in China.. I am happy that India doesnt do such stupid things to harass its own people just to play some games..
16 of the world’s top 20 MOST POLLUTED cities are in China!
By the way, How about India becoming China?
No voting rights?
Only one party?
No Judiciary?
No Free Press?
No spiritual movements?
No Right to Information Act?
No migration to cities or other better place?
No complete access to search engines for the subjects on country’s history?
No basic human rights?
No elected leaders?
most polluted cities?
etc
etc
Look at these posts for instance
http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/07/26/communism-a-tragedy-for-the-chinese-people/
and
http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/08/04/china-a-tragedy-called-development/
well — all interesting thots — its a matter of time that the Tiger roars ahead of panda — and yes, the strong US $ today is all cos of a nationalistic attitude followed by americans for years — ‘be american, buy american’ — a strong self reliant economy — does it have a clue for us?
Yes Raghu.. if we Indians put our words into action.. its just a matter of time before the tiger roars..
I would have to agree that panda wins today. Tomorrow might be tiger’s day.
Also Current china is not an old country. Not much time difference between communist china won against democrat chinese force and the independence of India.
China has veto power in UN, India don’t. There are talks about including India as permanent member but not with veto power.
China is more advanced in space, military, manufacturing technology. It’s finance system is better. When their share market was down, US had a very major impact. Also please don’t forget about their cultural heritage. (may be very little compared to India, but they do have it)
Also majority of the Chinese bar Tibetans are not Buddhist – a common misconception among Indians.
Also if you visit any Chinese cities, you won’t feel much difference against any other democratic city in the world.
As far as corruption is concerned, both are equal, but at least China gives capital punishment to the convicted corrupt officials.
Sau men se assi beiman, phir bhi mera bharat mahan.
Yes, India has democracy, but it is dysfunctional. The communist party in India might be bad, but citizens elect them in WB state years after years. Also Chinese currency is undervalued, so in reality they are much stronger. (Their currency is already much stronger than that of India). You can find many such reports in India including pensions not being paid and the settlers not being compensated for narmada dam etc.
Yes, in long term, I would like Indian system, but you should know that Chinese have changed a lot and they are not the communists they used to be 60 years ago.
But here to wishing everything about India being transformed into ultimate level (Com 5 level
) and going to sleep
Hello Guru.
Nice thoughts and sprit also. I want to say some thing. India will also have to pay the price of their population also. How India will overcome by the problem which will arises due to the population.
Yes China will face the problem of old and young people ratio. But after that, time will come when their population becomes low. They have huge area to live, their requirements will also reduce.
In India currently most of the youngsters got the job in IT field and in BPO sector. But in future when more bulk of young people come how they adjust into the market. At that time India has to face several problems.
GURU ITS TIME TO START THE VEHICLE.
YES AMBAJI VERY SOON
Paresh
Panda has not yet won… Its not a superpower yet.. Its just a bit ahead in the race on some lines (like more forex reserves, military, etc).. and a lot behind us (in many things like democracy, independent institutions like election commission, free press, freedom of basic human rights, independent judiciary etc)
Look at
http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/07/26/communism-a-tragedy-for-the-chinese-people/
and
http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/08/04/china-a-tragedy-called-development/
and the videos here
http://hitxp.wordpress.com/world/chinese-pollution/
It was India under Nehru that bargained for the Chinese to get them a veto power at UN!!
Chinese military might be stronger now.. but that doesnt mean anything in terms of development.. Indian defense forces are fourth largest in the world.. not very behind
both are nuclear powers.. so the equation is equal.. the era of conventional warfare domination no more exists..
Not only Chinese.. Even Indian finance system is good.. in fact it is very good..
As I said India is catching up.. the race is not yet over.. it has just started.. and India should not be targeting to beat China.. our target should be US and much beyond that… think high, think big
Where is the ancient Chinese cultural heritage? Do you know most of its Buddhist heritage site were destroyed by the Communists when they came in power.. bcos Communists wanted China to be an atheist nation..
Which is why today half of Chinese have no religion. . still Buddhism is the largest religion in China today.. followed by Christianity and Islam.. Confucius and Taoism are still prevalent there..
More over most of Chinese culture came to China from India by the buddhist monks and missionaries… ever since the times of Ashoka..
You said “Also if you visit any Chinese cities, you won’t feel much difference against any other democratic city in the world.”.. This has to be told by the Chinese people from the Chinese villages.. not by foreign visitors..
And you visit this blog http://chinaview.wordpress.com to see what Chinese rural people feel about their status.. We only see few snaps of Shanghai and Beijing and think China has become modern..
The average life expectancy of a Chinese traffic police is 43 years.. bcos of the premature death due to pollution !!
Every year over 450000 people die prematurely in China only bcos of pollution!!
“China gives capital punishment to the convicted corrupt officials.”!!! You know what, it is only low level guys that get punished there.. see the corruption index.. it is the communist leaders themselves who are corrupt there.. not some govt officer.. there are no courts there in China.. no free press… so just imagine about the amount of corruption which is not known to the outside world!!
In case of India because of free press and strong judiciary we can safely assume 50% of corruption comes to limelight.. in case of China it is only 1% because of the absence of judiciary and free press.. so if 1% itself makes China sit on par with India in the corruption list.. just imagine where actually China lies
Sau men se assi beiman, phir bhi mera bharat mahan.
Who allowed this beiman people to sit there? People like you and me.. thats where change is required..
Indian democracy is not dysfunctional… laloo is voted out of power… NDA came to power for 5 years.. Chandrababu naidu was voted out of power.. We have a very strong election commission..
what do you mean by dysfunctional? There are so many governments that are doing a lot of good things too… I myself can see the change in Karnataka ever since the dynamic chief minister Kumaraswamy took over…
The system might not be 100% perfect.. but it is definitely evolving.. Most importantly, nobody will stop you from protesting against anything… unlike in China where that very basic right is not there…
We dont want to be a super rich nation.. but without even the basic human right of being able to select in which city we want to live in the country..
Chinese currency is definitely undervalued.. but the moment its real value comes up Chinese forex reserves will go down like anything.. Largest Chinese profit comes from cheap exports.. which is why they have DELIBERATELY kept it undervalued… The moment its exposed to actual value, Chinese products will be costly and nobody will buy it.. If a Sony television and Chinese television costs the same, which one will you buy??
The actual value of Chinese currency being exposed simply means a surging profit for the Japanese and South Korean companies.. as people will go back to true proven brands if they anyway have to pay more money…
Till today I have met a lot of Bengalis who have migrated to Bangalore etc from West Bengal… not a single Bengali whom I have met supports communism.. and they all tell me that it is by force and cheating that the communist governments retain power there.. Communist cadres are all over the state.. who ensure that people vote only for the CPI and CPI-M.. None of my Bengali friends want to go back to West Bengal either!!!
Regarding pensions.. I dont know where you read those pension not being paid thing in India.. India has more money than ever in its post independence history today..
Only a small delay in pensions in some weakly performing north Indian states of UP and Bihar.. is what I had heard once.. that was long back..
You said “Chinese have changed a lot and they are not the communists they used to be 60 years ago.”
I say, there is no true Communism at all.. Communism is completely against Capitalism.. Chinese today want it both the ways.. Complete control in the name of communism over its people.,. and at the same time benefits of globalisation… Hypocrites in the name of ideology
I have read Marx, Lenin, Mao.. The communist parties of India too are biggest jokes, misleading people in the name of Communism.. If Karl Marx had been alive, he would have committed suicide if he came to know that Buddhadev Bhattacharya calls himself a communist
And finally.. if India has to become a superpower, then you should not sleep
just kidding..
Pankaj
India has to use its growing population to its advantage…
Countries like Austrialia and Russia are encouraging people to have more children!
It is very important that India continues to maintain the ratio that most of its population is very young..
And at the same time we need to ensure that the entire population is well educated.. has good jobs.. we need to create adequate job opportunities by expanding the success of IT to other sectors..
1/6 of world population is Indian.. we need to use it to our advantage! I see the huge population of India as a potential advantage over all other countries in the world.. than as a disadvantage.. provided we use it properly..
Even India has huge area to live.. It is only the cities that are overcrowded currently and so we need to decentralize growth and spread it to rural areas too…
Dude,
Great Article man… really worth reading it..
you gave me “food for thought” from a different perspective.
great effort..
@dev, really true. team work… We never do that well…
But dont you think we need to have good politicians.
with 100crores of public in place, still we depend on gandhi family to rule us…
to change a system, we need to be in the system
other than paying taxes regularly we dont do anything much
Really concerned since, politics is a profession here, than a service.
Presidential election is just another example
[...] A stronger rupee means we can easily afford foreign trips! This is what I wrote in one of my earlier blogs. [...]
Yes Arun, you are absolutely right. we need good leaders.. now that there is a real shortage of good leaders.. we have even more scope.. let us ourselves become good leaders
As Gandhi said, “Be the change you want to see in the society”
Gurudev,
Really impressed with ur article and ur thoughts and good 2 knw there are others 2 who think highly abt INDIA !! Thumbs up 2 u guys !!
But as Ambaji says, dont u think people like u and many others shld come public, not stay behind the scene. And if u hav seen todays paper , this is the right time…
kindly go to this link and register Gurudev–
http://www.lead.timesofindia.com/
WE, as todays YOUTH are resonsible for OUR INDIA !!
WE are the ONES who need to inspire the coming YOUNG MINDS and encourage them to do something for the betterment of our NATION !!
Hye GuruDev lovely article man…!!
came to know many facts bout china… gave me real gud insights ..
keep on writing buddy.. just amazed by ur research..
All da best…TC …[:)]
Thanks for the link A J J
Many of my friends also sent it to me.. will give it a try
Yes, as you said it is high time that we get into action mode!
Thanks Shukresh for your wishes..
The more people come to know about the actual truth, the more successful will I consider my efforts to be..
hi,
gr8 text.. gr8 information. But i want to ask one thing Guru, what practically we all can do on our own base to push our country towards success and make it a super power like America and other countries?
I agree with ur comment as “Let us try to become #1 in our respective fields, and India will automatically become #1 in the world” But is that enough?
I really want to do something for my country but my passion has no direction. I don’t want to go to the border and fight like a soldier and die. I want to live for my country and actually do something that help me, my community and my country grow! Plz suggest
I will wait for your reply
Shweta
“Let us try to become #1 in our respective fields, and India will automatically become #1 in the world”
This line was for those Indians who do not want to take even the slightest of risks, and still can contribute to a stronger India by just being in their respective profession/passion.
Then we need leaders who can lead from the front. Organize, galvanize the youth and show them actual directions.
We dont need leaders who organize movements where people come out on the streets and protest.
We need leaders who organize people, who stop relying on political class for development, stop criticizing politicians for their failures, and instead start development activities independent of these politicians.
In a nutshell, just like the way IT developed in this country, India should continue to become strong “inspite of its political system”
If you want me to assist you in what actually you can do practically in this direction, please mail me at itzguru@gmail.com
Hi Guru,
I agree with u. Thanks for your advice. I’ll surely write to you. By the way, I am in IT field as well. I think I can continue my movement to improve my India via my profession.
Thanks for making us aware of the truths. I really like your blog and would love to visit regularly!
Thanks again,
shweta
Shweta
Nice to hear that even you are in IT.
Given the fact that my best bet today is on IT (since I am in this field too), I hope to cross roads with the like minded Indian youth in this field some day soon
All the best for your efforts and thanks for liking the blog!
Cheers
Guru
[...] Am not very sure but I believe there’s a related article (must read) available on following link. Tiger Vs Panda Art of Celebrating Life! – by Gurudev © 2005-2007 Enjoy! __________________ http://nibmindia.org …………. m loving it *Think for PG* [...]
[...] Am not very sure but I believe there’s a related article (must read) available on following link. Tiger Vs Panda Art of Celebrating Life! – by Gurudev © 2005-2007 Enjoy! 2nd point is not entirely correct. Exporters in India would infact want the domestic [...]
gurudev,
if china attacks us today what will be the senario…in 1 of ur blog u have said india even dont have proper nuclear missiles and whatever they have are old and not regorously tested and china is way ahead on india in that scenario…..what will happen to india and dreams of all people like u and me are seeing to empower india…or such scenarion wont occur that china attacking india….?…they have already caputued some part in Assam…Pak is behind Kashmir….when i think …i just cant imagine what will happen …if china keeps on intruding or attacking…can you please provide insight on this….
Thanks gurudev
Anonymous
Most people in India always concentrate on Pakistan as a threat to India. But I personally believe that it is China in the long run that is a real threat.
When the earlier NDA government came to power, the then defense minister of India George Fernandes had clearly stated that it is China and not Pakistan, which is the number one threat to India, and he had said this just a week before India conducted its nuclear tests in may 1998.
See http://www.tibet.ca/en/wtnarchive/1998/5/4-2_1.html
I think NDA government was one of the best things to happen in defense sector for India. We had a great committed defense minister whom every army jawan respected. No defense minister till then had gone to the deadly combat field of Siachen and he made multiple visits to that place. I dont think any congress government would have ever conducted a nuclear test, to introduce a minimum deterrence which was badly missing from Indian arsenal. It also revealed to the world Pakistan’s nuclear status. Which country can give an immediate tit for tat response for a nuclear test unless and until they have borrowed technology
Today India, China and Pakistan are all nuclear powers. We might have not made adequate tests for highest level of accuracy, but we do have credible nuclear deterrence, and remember neither had americans done detailed tests before they nuked Japan in 1945.
But being practical, China in no way wants to hamper its economic growth for at least another decade, only somebody who is mad in China can think about a war with India at this juncture where economy matters more than anything else. Because both for India and China, any slowdown in its economic growth now means a point of no return.
The worry today actually should be about Pakistani military and administration going into the hands of some extremist elements. Any such indication should be responded with a pro-active strike to contain any further damages. We dont have to do that either, US and Israel will take care. Israeli missiles actually have been alert with targets towards Pakistani cities for quite a long time, as Israel feels that the only real threat for them in the region could be from Pakistan.
It was the Israeli satellite surveillance systems and unmanned drones that helped India get the crucial information about enemy targets during the Kargil war.
As of now there is no need to worry. Worry is the misuse of imagination, so we need to concentrate on something more productive, preparedness.
what is russias role in this …will it support india in such circumstances????
also by this do you mean that since india and china are in the race of becoming superpower for atleast another 10 yrs ther is no threat of any war??? Is Russia not in the race of becoming superpower???
Russia has been a trust worthy ally of India which has supported India in its hour of the need.
Every country wants to be a super power. It is a continuous race. India has a greater chance if it uses its youth potential properly, world’s largest number of youth live in India, over 50% of India is below the age of 25, which is a staggering 500 million that exceeds the total population of Russia + USA
The most important thing that we need to remember is that it is not enough if we only build a super power, but more importantly we need to have a structure in place that will maintain that status of being a super power. Maintaining the success is more important and equally difficult than the success itself!
China has already bet India to superpower status many times before. China was the worlds’ leading civilization for 5000years according to the CIAs’ world fact-book.
Right now China is topping India in almost every aspect. Democracy doesn’t necessarily mean people’s standard of living is better. For example whats the point of having a right to vote when almost half of India’s population is illiterate?
Dare I say that China has a literacy rate of almost 100% and people in China can expect a higher standard of living. Even taking into account our so called “lack of freedom” and India’s abundance of it, the UN still ranks China higher in terms of HDI (Human development index).
But rightly so…Buddhism is Indian and martial arts may well be. But Chinese success Indian? I think not.
Where is the ancient civilization in China today? Only in India its ancient civilization still survives. All other civilizations across the world have been destroyed. The communist government in China is atheist, has destroyed innumerable Chinese cultural heritages and monuments, does not allow any cultural/religions activities, look at the fate of Falun Gong. And what a mad government, the Chinese government has recently passed a law saying ‘Monks cannot reincarnate without government permission’ !!
See http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20227400/site/newsweek/
What a joke by a superpower aspirant
Of the Top 50 Asian companies in the Forbes list published recently 7 are from China, and India tops the list with 12!
About India, time will prove India, just wait for another decade or so:)
About China, look at
http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/09/02/mad-in-china/
http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/08/23/coal-blooded-murder/
http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/08/04/china-a-tragedy-called-development/
http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/07/26/communism-a-tragedy-for-the-chinese-people/
http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/07/18/chinese-goods-cheap-yet-expensive/
Also look at http://chinaview.wordpress.com to know from the Chinese people themselves. When we say a country has become a super power, it means the people of the country, not the government. In India it is the people’s desire, in China it is the government’s, and there lies the difference
HI GD, nice blog.
Well i always thought about the things you wrote in your numeros blogs. but the questions is very simple that i cannot find an answer for.
I am not talking about surveys or data collected from orgnization i am talking about wat i see around.
People are patriotic and wants India to Develop and all good things.
But when it come to practice the basic morality it seems like we are Hypocartes (i am talking about me and all who are like me)
For instacnce i nvr supported corruption till one day when i wanted a driving license and i gave the test every time the officer has to point out a mistake or something.
Till i paid him.
Who has the time to go to court or keep complaning and compromise on there most important thing (job).
I guess there are a few percentage of people who are corrupt and forcing others to be a part of corruption. ( taking advantage of the weak)
wat i suggest is we should work step by step to make india a super power, concentrate on the root cause of all the problems.
currption cannot be overcome, but if we follow rules there would be less situations where we actually have to compromise and be a part of corruption.
( After i got my License, i always follow the traffic rules, and i nvr had to pay to a officer again).
Hi GD,
Nice views here on Tiger vs Panda.
The biggest advantage for India is its youth.
But one thing I have always worry is : chinese are China
but are Indians India?
as i feel the distinction between India and indians is far more than bewtween China and chinese
Gururaj,
To a large extent I feel that the difference between Chinese and Indians is the difference between nationalism and patriotism
Vicky
Corruption exists everywhere in the world, not only in India. Yes its more in India.
We have two categories of corruption and this classification I feel is very important.
Corruption at high level where greedy politicians mint crores of rupees.
Corruption at low level where a police constable takes bribe to buy things for himself/his family which he cant afford otherwise. The average salary of a police constable in India is 6000-8000 Rs per month! Compare this with the average salary of a software engineer which is nothing less then 25000 per month!
The solution to this should also be in two different ways. The difference between the most paid and least paid in the salaried people in a society should always be very less. This creates an equal society free of corruption. Because when all are paid almost the same, neither will there be any need for corruption, nor will any type of job be looked upon as inferior or superior.
For the corruption at high levels, the only solution is awareness among the electorate and capital punishment for offenders.
Coming back to your question. while some can afford to refuse to pay bribe, it all depends on the urgency of the requirement vs symbolic protests. While one can afford to refuse to pay bribe when its the issue of getting any license, one cannot do so in case of a medical emergency!
I personally dont believe in symbolic protests, because not everybody will really follow it. If one person refuses to pay bribe, there are 1000 others who are willing to pay bribe!
The root cause is what that needs to be addressed always. There should be no need for an officer to ASK bribe. And then subsequently it should be followed by severe punishment also to contain any greed.
It is so funny. A guy who knows nothing about China is talking about China. Most information you got are from the extreme anti-communism website “epochtimes.com” which never say anything good in China.
Hi,
I think it will take few generations for the corruption to really get reduced as for the last 1000 years India was ruled by people/culture of foreign origin especially the British . so cheating the government was ok then and it made sense as well. And it is still continuing. People still have a very strong anti establishment feeling.
“What a joke by a superpower aspirant
Of the Top 50 Asian companies in the Forbes list published recently 7 are from China, and India tops the list with 12!”
It is really a joke!
http://www.redcatjournal.com/china-content/china-stocks/half-world-039-s-top-10-largest-companies-market-capitalization-are-chine
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/10/29/bloomberg/bxinvest.php
Credit to your recent comment widget .I am again impressed by this posting.If you have had compared crane of Japan , what would you say. Buddhism did make impact throughout the world for” peace”.Overall Chinese managed to prove they are very hardworking people .You see most of the products that where I live here in USA are mostly Chinese manufacturers. Their religion is primarily influenced by great thinker Confucius and crane of Japan has got an edge over tiger of India .Tiger is stubborn in its way so its Indian people.Even here in USA , immigrant initially get a dose of communism more than democracy.You have choice but limited or no choice.like If you want any brand of appliances you can freely buy in India while in USA
you have to choose one of given choices.Its probably done
with the safety guidelines .
But it is still like comparing apples with oranges. chinese are chinese but indian are always not indian
Titan
My information about China is not from one single website. Its from the very people who belong to the oppressed Chinese masses as well as those who belong to the Chinese communist cadre. I regularly read chinese news papers both from within china as well as outside.
A superpower should be by the people, not just by the government. Please see http://chinaview.wordpress.com , do you think all of them are bogus?
In India we dont have any fear talking against the establishment, while in China you will be jailed beaten and what not!
In India our government did not call its army to fire on its youth students. We have a multiparty system in India and can vote people in or out of power. Tianenmen square happened in China, not in India
In India, there is no massive ban on internet sites which talk against the government, only in China do search engines have filters and websites are blocked.
In India there is no need for people to secretly record incidents of government oppression in their hidden mobile phones/cameras, our media is free to record and report things in broad daylight. Only in your china and Burma do people have to secretly record incidents of government oppression without getting caught and then pass it out to the external world.
If you think the below links are jokes, well fine, I cant really help it, can I?
http://in.news.yahoo.com/070907/43/6kfob.html
http://www.rediff.com/money/2007/sep/06indian.htm
Gurudev, your images of China still stay in old days. Tianenmen square was almost 20 years ago.
Forget the “http://chinaview.wordpress.com” which information comes from “epochtimes.com” supported by Falungong created by a man who claimed himself a God.
The Chinese now can say whatever they want as long as they do not threaten to overturn the government like Falungong.
Donot use democracy or communinism as an excuse for cities becoming so messy in India. Google some photoes of Chinese 3-tier cities or cities in the poorest province like Gansu.
It is even more ridiculous today if you still think “India tops the list with 12″ is not a joke. http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/11/04/business/bubble.php
by the way, rural poors in poorest county in China.
Sure, they are poor but still much better than poors in the streets in Mumbai.
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/1522979B-107E-46C8-A84E-7425F60C3EE9.htm
http://english.aljazeera.net/PhotoGallery/Aspx/Show.aspx?album=chinafarmers¤tPage=1&slidshow=Next
Titan
what a source to quote of all? Al-jazeera!
Mukesh Ambani of Reliance is almost the richest man in the world today!
We Indians love freedom. We are happy that we can even protest against the government. Vote in and vote out representatives, form our own parties.
Cities of India are messy? Yes of course they are, but they are of course are getting better too. Our growth is inclusive not exclusive, people from villages are not stopped in India from entering the cities. We are not treated like aliens in our own land.
You are talking about poors in mumbai?? It simply means you havent seen mercedes in front of the slums of mumbai
some of the most richest are there in the slums there, ask how much a beggar in mumbai earns!
Dont go by the looks of mumbai
http://hitxp.wordpress.com/world/chinese-pollution/
If chinaview is a fake site, then what are these videos? fake?
There are hundreds of spiritual people and organizations in India. Nobody gets arrested for preaching spirituality or religion in India. In China any person or organization who has views other than that of commies is terminated. In India we even allow communists!!!!
Look at the kind of governments china supports.. Burma, North Korea, Pakistan.. all dictators where people are denied their basic rights..
What is the use of world class cities when people dont have the basic freedom to speak and criticize?
You live happily in your “world class” cities, we are more than happy with our “messy” cities
好运气
What a logic! Some richest beggers with mercedes in slums can not prove most of beggers in the slums are not poor. As far as the living standard is concerned, China wins all aspects except the population growth.
People in the video you provided look quite decent and streets quite neat despite the pollution. let us take a look at the pollution in India.
http://web.centre.edu/enviro/Photos_files/photolib_files/Picturefiles/Indian%20Slideshow%20x/Indian%20Pollution/Indian%20Pollution%20Show.htm
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N04197040.htm
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2007/06/11/100083453/index.htm
I just found some information about Mumbai slums
http://mumbai.metblogs.com/archives/2006/01/mumbai_slums.phtml#jn
1. Almost 54 per cent of Mumbaikars live in slums today.
2. Another 25 to 30 per cent live in chawls and footpaths.
3. Remaining 10 to 15 per cent, live in buildings, bungalows or high-rises.
Pictures:
http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0705/feature3/index.html
Need more?
As I said earlier, you probably dont understand the Indian psyche, we value our freedom of expression more than ANYTHING ELSE including your so called luxurious cities.
There may still be poor Indians, but there is definitely a slow transitions. I myself was from a very poor family, not anymore!
Over a period of time we will slowly get rid of poverty too. But will over a period of time the Chinese people get their freedom to express themselves? Will there be free media? Will people be free to call spade a spade? Without being arrested and tortured?
Even after 20 years of Tianenmen, your government has not apologized for the incident. Which government on this planet has called army to fire on its own youth students? Only China has
Freedom to express is more important to us than luxurious cities. We love our country, no matter how bad shape it is in.
But look at China, the number of people who are dissenting from China to other countries in search of freedom every year. They have even settled in India. Entire tibetans who fled Tibet when China invaded Tibet, are today settled in India. Come to my state and see these photos live of the tibetan colony here http://www.worldisround.com/articles/17348/
Forget just the Indians, even for the refugees see what kind of freedom and opportunities we provide and make them one with us. That is the greatness of India. In China forget about the foreigners, your own people dont have the basic rights to express and protest.
In India, even if the tibetans protest against the Indian government, nobody will even touch them. Got it. That is LIFE for us. TRUE FREEDOM
Look at your China now
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/sdc/sdchome.html
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/sdc/hr_facts.html
http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5hdBfIviA1BCuNeVyA5BU1Ba1rGpw
http://hrichina.org/public/
I can add and add and add…
Hi,
In my view Indians cherish independance more than freedom.
It may seem odd but Independance is not same as freedom.
Then tell me what is the basic rights for a poor? And donot tell me it is the FREEDOM that made most of Indian cities so filthy and stink. Donot tell me the poors in Mumbai’s slums have mercedes but without basic rights such as clean water, food, electricity, even toilet.
Titan
Come and live in India for a year and you will know the difference between India and China
I visited India. I cannot say I know India well but I knew a little difference. What surprised me was chaotic and semi-anarchic at most place in Mumbai and New Delhi. At least the government should keep the existing roads clearn and orderly even if he could not build new one.
I found a blog from a westerner who visited China and India.
http://chris-adams.blogspot.com/2007/09/summer-ends.html
And
both china and india are having some areas of concern and advantages, only time will tell who has overcomed the odd’s.
india has more youth population than any other country, but the whole synergy should be proper channelised in right direction and dont forget other nations wont leave there superior position so easily and this race to prove superiority might prove to costly and may lead to ww III and all efforts will go in vain…since even treta, dwapar yugas couldn’t escape from super power race and war this is said to be kaliyuga…
does any one know if satya yuga had any kind of war or race for super power ??
You had been quoting so many articles and links,interestingly from al-jazeera.. and we wish you all the best in your theories…
The rapid emergence of China and India dramatically transformed the global economy during the last decade. But the two countries have pursued contrasting strategies: China’s industrialization has been fueled by public-sector investments and large-scale foreign direct investment (FDI) in manufacturing; India’s has been driven largely by domestic companies and entrepreneurs. More recently, however, the two countries have taken efforts to collaborate. India, for instance, has learned from China’s successes to lure investors to the country’s manufacturing sector and has become the third largest recipient of FDI. Closer engagement between China and India has tremendous implications for the Asian economy and should be welcomed by our neighbors. Nonetheless, both countries must undertake extensive domestic reforms to capitalize fully on the benefits of globalization.
China and India have its own problems.. please dont tell me about the living standards in china.. I myself had stayed in china for close to an year and got the opportunity to travel to some rural areas(which is kind of risking your life)…I am very much amused at your statement “As far as the living standard is concerned, China wins all aspects except the population growth.”…. have you ever been to China dear friend???
In the near future India is unlikely to receive a poor score card from world allies as a bastion of freedom and democracy and economic openness. Indeed, the US increasingly views India as a strategic partner in the evolving regional economic, political and security arrangements in Asia, and is keen to work with India to help make it into ‘a major global power in the 21st century’. Meanwhile, China has difficulties precisely on these issues.
India’s GDp had been growing consistently around 7-8% over the years. India is achieving this result with just half of China’s level of domestic investment in new factories and equipment, and only 10 per cent of China’s foreign direct investment. While China’s GDP growth in the last two years remained high, in 2004 and 2005 it was investing close to 50 per cent of its GDP in domestic plant and equipment – roughly equivalent to India’s entire GDP. That is higher than any other country, exceeding even China’s own exalted levels in the era of central planning. The evidence is as clear as ever: China’s growth stems from massive accumulation of resources, while India’s growth comes from increasing efficiency.
India is our country..and if we as citizens dont support our country, will u do that for us??? You may have your own views and might contradict but then instead of wasting time here,do something productive for China…I would say responsible social being
On the other hand we will do all our best to ensure that our country surpasses all the difficulties that we are facing now, be it food,power or high living standards.. But there is good news for you… the biggest beneficiary of the rise of India will be China itself. It will be forced to examine the imperfections of its own economic model and to abandon its sense of complacency acquired in the 1990s. China was light years ahead of India in economic liberalisation in the 1980s. Today it lags behind in critical aspects, such as rural education and domestic private entry in the financial sector…. and last but not least, freedom to its own people….
Very well said Rahul
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indian_economy_smaller_than_thought_World_Bank/articleshow/2630912.cms
poverty benchmark in $ and what is PPP ???
open ours eyes..don’t be narrow mind..read the following articls
________________________________________
An Indian in China
read the article with photos here
http://specials.rediff.com/news/2007/sep/22sl1.htm
September 22, 2007
Managing Editor Sheela Bhatt was on an 11-day visit to the People’s Republic of China. Bhatt, who was part of the 17-member Indian Women’s Press Corps that went to China, visited Shanghai and Beijing and also took the breathtaking 4,000-km train journey from Beijing to Lhasa.
What a tourist can expect in China
http://nitawriter.wordpress.com/2007…pect-in-china/
The Urban Chinese
http://nitawriter.wordpress.com/2007…urban-chinese/
The four cities of China
http://nitawriter.wordpress.com/2007…ties-of-china/
Eating out in in China
http://nitawriter.wordpress.com/2007…t-in-in-china/
read this also
The rapid growth of the Indian and Chinese economies have transformed the two countries in recent years. But this prosperity has also brought other problems.
I think it was in 2003, that the world suddenly woke up to China.
I am not sure what caused it to happen, what particular event or news story. I just remembered the phone in the BBC’s Beijing Bureau started ringing and it has not stopped since.
Well now it is happening again and this time it is not China, it is India.
Every time you turn on the television or pick up a magazine, it is no longer the rise of China, it is now the rise of China and India.
The desire to make comparisons is understandable. Both have more than a billion people. Both are growing at 10% a year.
There are, I suspect, many who are hoping that India, with its freedom and democracy, will win this new race to become the next economic super power. I am not so sure.
I have spent the last eight years living in Beijing, and only four days in Delhi, so comparisons are difficult.
But the few days I recently spent in India made me look at China in a new light.
‘Shocking experience’
Delhi is an overwhelming experience. It is as if all of humanity has been squeezed into one city.
The streets groan under the weight of people. The air is filled with deafening noise and sumptuous smells.
Switch on the television and it is the same.
Between channels blasting out voluptuous Bollywood love stories and pop videos, an endless stream of news channels dissect the latest political scandals, and debauched lifestyles of the rich and famous.
Coming from China it is an almost shocking experience.
But after the initial delight at being in an open society, I started to notice other things.
The hotel was expensive and bad. In my room I searched for a high speed internet connection, a standard feature in any hotel in China. There was not one.
Then with the night-time temperature still well above 30C (86F) the power went out.
I lay for hours soaked in sweat trying, and failing, to get back to sleep and wishing I was back in Beijing where the lights never go out.
But getting back would not be easy.
Passenger queues
I looked at my plane ticket. Departure time 0315. Surely that could not be right.
I called the front desk. “That’s correct sir,” he said, “the airport is too small so many flights from Delhi leave in the middle of the night.”
He was not joking.
My taxi struggled along the Jaipur road towards the airport.
The two-lane road was clogged by an endless convoy of lorries. Finally I arrived at Indira Gandhi International airport. Despite the hour it was teeming with people.
The queues snaked around the airport and back to where they had started.
Foreign tourists stared in bewilderment. Locals with the resigned look of those used to waiting.
“Is it always like this?” I asked a man in the queue ahead of me.
“Pretty much,” he sighed.
I was finally shepherded aboard the flight to Shanghai.
Next to me sat a friendly looking Indian man in shorts and running shoes.
“Is this your first trip to China?” he asked me.
“No,” I replied, “I live there.”
“Really,” he said, his interest piqued, “what should I expect?”
“I think,” I said, “you should expect to be surprised.”
Jaw dropping
Six hours later, our plane taxied to a halt in front of the soaring glass and steel of Shanghai’s Pudong International Airport
As we emerged into the cool silence of the ultra-modern terminal, my new companion’s jaw slid towards his belly button.
“I was not expecting this,” he said, his eyes wide in wonder. “Oh no, I definitely was not expecting this”.
I also found myself looking at China afresh.
Later that day as I drove home from Beijing airport along the smooth six-lane highway I could not help feeling a sense of relief at being back in a country where things work.
And it was not just the airports and roads.
Driving through a village on the edge of Beijing I was struck by how well everyone was dressed.
In Delhi, I had been shocked to see thousands of people sleeping rough on the streets every night, nothing but the few rags they slept in to call their own. Even deep in China’s countryside that is not something you will see.
In Delhi I had been told of the wonders of India’s new economy, of the tens of thousands of bright young graduates churning out the world’s latest computer software.
I thought of China’s new economy, of the tens of millions of rural migrants who slave away in factories, making everything from plimsolls to plasma televisions.
And of the same rural migrants, heading home to their villages at Chinese New Year festival loaded down with gifts, their pockets stuffed full of cash.
China is not a free society, and it has immense problems. But its successes should not be underestimated.
They are ones that India, even with its open and democratic society, is still far from matching.
September 22, 2007
Managing Editor Sheela Bhatt was on an 11-day visit to the People’s Republic of China. Bhatt, who was part of the 17-member Indian Women’s Press Corps that went to China, visited Shanghai and Beijing and also took the breathtaking 4,000-km train journey from Beijing to Lhasa.
In a series starting with her first impressions, she will give you a ringside view of the China that she saw, and what it means for India.
Before visiting Beijing, Shanghai and Lhasa my idea of China was that of a country without democracy and leaders without hearts.
The Chinese had cheap and poor labour exploited by the owners of manufacturing units set up mainly for exports, I thought.
Their managers were robots and not as creative as our Gurucharn Das or Jaithirth Rao, I thought.
The Chinese professionals follow discipline on job and the Chinese, always, obey their government. How terrible, I thought.
The Chinese have a historical dislike for Japanese and they are doubtful of whatever America does in and around the world, I thought.
Then, in just over a week’s time, China went about dismantling all my preconceived notions and smashing my theories.
I saw how China is developing, with what space and with what kind of resolve. Talking to some 40 to 50 Chinese brains and hearts was an experience worth sharing.
Before I begin, I must confess that ten days in China may not have brought me closer to the real China but it still holds useful lessons for urban Indians like me. So here goes.
The life and time of China epitomises fear of the human mind and China knows wonderfully well how to deal with it.
The visit to Great Wall of China and the Forbidden City in Beijing gives a fair idea of the depth of Chinese minds.
One would like to believe that the people who built the Great Wall of China could build anything. It’s the world’s biggest military structure and it was the defence against the nomadic tribes who came from up north. The Forbidden City was the palace of the Ming dynasty. It has symbols of wisdom, reliability, humanity, sense of duty and ceremonial propriety. For instance it has a gate named supreme harmony, and palaces named earthy tranquility and heavenly purity.
Today’s China is challenging the commonly-accepted concept of democracy because its authoritarian regime has achieved much more in actual terms than any democracy can dream of. The Chinese government claims that more than 300 million people have been brought above the poverty line in less than three decades.
The Chinese have developed at a frenzied pace not because they are a fascist society and lack democracy, but because they think economic prosperity is the best way of ensuring national security, a theory that formed under the leadership of Deng Xiaoping two decades ago.
One look at China and it is evident how many countries in the world — including India — are lagging behind.
Here is a lesson for those who champion the cause of democracy. For better security of the country build, build, build. Make roads, make bridges, multiply production and multiply exports. The Chinese dreamt it, toiled for it and in record time they have done it.
All their new creations, be it the skyscrapers or the rails or the airports or the super factories have the touch of permanency, its planning is based on long term projections and the government has shown that whatever it does, it tries to keep it people friendly. Critics may call this an illusion or delusion, but the urban Chinese call it democracy.
Whenever we tried to discuss democracy with the common Chinese man, he says, “But, we do have democracy.”
“Of course, that’s not true.” “But my father and grandfather did not even have enough food or clothes.”
Today, whatever success we see in India is privately motivated while in China when you board the train to Lhasa from Beijing you see how an undemocratic government has done wonders for the people living in its not-so-developed Western region.
The passion for building roads and rails and airports is maddening; it is as though the Chinese confidence gets a quiet boost after the completion of each monstrosity.
What America could not do to Kabul after 2001, what India is unable to do to Srinagar for six decades, China has done to Lhasa, Tibet. But is it entirely correct to link China’s giant strides to its indifference to human rights? The truth lies somewhere in between.
Determination and resolve to do big things to ensure future stability and to have a firm grip on the regions have also contributed in a big way. Standing proof for this is Lhasa: boasting a state of art airport and railway station, it has an SEZ of its own and has amazing length of roads, tunnels and bridges unseen in Asia at this scale.
‘Show me the money’ is the refrain of the young.
As an Indian I found Chinese people quite warm even though I remain wary of their government’s stance on the border disputes. India in its national interest must have its own native way of dealing with China.
We are as intelligent as any Asian could be so instead of going by Western, mainly British or American thinking, we should have our own formula of “harmonious relation” with China.
Every Indian must shed the phobia of China and should understand the difference between American perceived China and China’s actual game plan in Asia.
In the 21st century, no nation is fool enough to trust other nation. India shall not trust China but Indians should see few facts to shed the phobia of Chinese strategies.
China’s stake in South Asia is too high to take confrontational approach to India. If India is united within (communal and caste based confrontations weakens India)and India remains on path of 8% growth China will not be able to afford to take India for ride. China does have sense of history and value of good relations with India.
See the Chinese development, see their figures of economic indexes and then see how poor people and people who are lagging behind in China can make or break the country.
Meaning China is talking about peaceful rise and harmonious society because an “improved image” will give it the time and space to have equality within. India should grab this movement to deal with China in the Indian way. Indian wisdom says when a guy gets rich he becomes insecure. Richer China will have no other option but to talk about peace with neighbours and India should welcome it, sincerely.
China, Taiwan and Hong Kong’s combined GDP is enough to give America jitters in about two decades or even earlier. Before that India should have its strategy in place to compete with China in trade and culture.
Before I finish writing this piece, Shanghai would have got more than one million dollar of additional investment.
A British citizen who was working with UNICEF was climbing Great Wall with me. We were talking about China and its history.
He said, “Better you go home and write your story faster. China is changing so rapidly that it has defied my expectations. I have spent my whole life in managing development issues in third world country like Bangladesh, Myanmar, Sri Lanka and some 20 other countries. But after coming to China I must confess that I don’t know the ABC of development.”
As a not-so-conservative Indian, I fail to understand how as ancient society as China will withstand these rapid changes in a long run.
Right now, urban people are enjoying their moment and as Pallvi Aiyar, a writer in Beijing, put it the urban Chinese have developed vested interest in not rushing for democracy but more music, more sex, more food and more American films and better and better Western buildings and architecture will bring in individuality of western flavour in Chinese society.
China Vs. India — A student’s view point
By: Bale
http://www.kanglaonline.com/index.php?template=kshow&kid=610
Last summer, I had the good fortune of visiting China as part of a larger group of MBA students from the Wharton School, USA. Having grown up in India and having traveled around S.E. Asia, I had certain pre-conceived expectations about China prior to my visit.
However, by the end of my trip, these expectations had been exceeded by far. China is an enigma but it also an extremely exciting place where optimism is brimming from all directions. I couldn’t help but compare China to India. And while there are several points of contrast between the two countries the main takeaway was that although China had already made significant progress in narrowing the gap between itself and developed countries, the future for India looks very promising.
As we crossed Hong Kong harbour into Mainland China at Shenzhen, the first thing that took my breath away was the world class highway – a 4-lane dual-carriage motorway – as opposed to the dusty road that I had envisioned. That made me think of the awesome and picturesque Mumbai-Pune highway stretch, the most beautiful highway strip I have seen anywhere in the world.
The primary differences between the two countries’ highway systems are that while both are state of the art, China has a much more extensive highway system as the government there emphasised infrastructure development at the onset of its economic reforms in 1979.
Also, the Chinese highway network has millions more cars that utilise its roads. The Mumbai-Pune highway, despite its beauty, is still underutilised. However, India’s automobile industry is churning more cars every year and its output will surely rise exponentially as long as the government’s plans to link India via highways continue unabated.
Another offshoot of infrastructure is real estate, which is booming in China today. The skylines of Shenzhen, Shanghai, Chengdu and Hong Kong are homes to some of the tallest buildings in the world and are reminiscent of scenes from Star Trek.
A quick trip around Beijing’s Central Business District reveals more cranes per square km than you can fathom. The government has “moved” factories to the outskirts of the city to pave way for commercial and residential properties. Consequently, there has been a flurry of real estate speculation with large swings in property prices in major cities.
Though in India, real estate growth seems to have taken off of late with cities like Delhi, Mumbai, Bangalore, Chennai and Kolkata experiencing real estate boom, property development as in China is difficult in Indian cities due to space constrains. However, the development of suburbs like Gurgaon and Ghaziabad in Delhi, Rajar Haat in Kolkata etc has also seen the emergence of a new type of city growth so far unseen outside Mumbai.
One solution to the space constraints faced by Indian cities is to develop and promote mid sized cities or completely new townships as the Chinese did with Shenzhen, which grew from a sleepy border town of 341,000 to a city of 6 million people since 1980.
However, in India also, tier II and tier III cities like Pune, Mysore, Chandigarh are coming up, defying the age-old system of metro-centric growth.
The third most interesting aspect about my visit was the sheer optimism of the country’s potential – a universal sentiment that was shared by all types of people – people from the interiors of China, entrepreneurs, foreign nationals doing business in China as well as students.
Most striking was the fact that all the students I met at two of China’s top MBA programmes wanted to work in China and were not lured by lucrative jobs offered in the West or even Singapore. The students believed that China was the place to be in both the near and long term and that it would be foolish to leave a high growth/high opportunity market, such as China, for the more flat growth and unfamiliar markets of the West.
This last Chinese nationalistic and optimistic sentiment was both astonishing and inspiring. It made me reflect whether it is possible to mitigate and reverse the brain drain that is characteristic in India today. In the US/UK, there are thousands of Indian students many of who harbor intentions of returning to India albeit primarily for personal rather than economical reasons.
On the flip side, there are many in India who migrate to the West and SE Asia in search for more lucrative opportunities. But the tide is turning in favour of India. Conferences such as the Wharton India Economic Forum (to be held in Philadelphia on November 18th 2005) have played a critical role in reversing the “brain drain” by educating students about the possibilities available in India.
India may not have an extensive world class infrastructure network or the tallest buildings in the world but we still have the conditions and the opportunities available for building successful business while at the same time contributing to the country’s economic development – a thriving democracy, well functioning capital markets and legal systems.
The flurry of domestic and cross border M&A activity over the last few years coupled with the rush of eminent private equity players scrambling to pick a slice of the Indian market is testimony to the growth and investment potential of Indian industry.
Additionally, India has some of the brightest minds in the world and a growing entrepreneurial skill set buttressed by the return of the successful Indian entrepreneurs of Silicon Valley. It is time to put our tremendous resources together to reverse the brain drain and to evoke similar expressions of awe to visitors as I experienced during my visit to China.